But you should know as well as anyone that you cant get anywhere with an alcoholic by forcing him. Not all former drinkers transform into likeable people. Acting like a sixteen-year-old boy is not manly, it is obnoxious and childish. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. I enjoy reading here! But please accept the fact that we dont all agree with you on all the details, including what if any role a local church should play in the life of an alcoholic. Funeral Home Services for Robert are being provided by . Velour wrote: Through the connections we had made a lot of lives were changed. are you far from there? How does it help children to have an alcoholic parent put out of a church and not gotten into treatment for alcoholics? We will all be praying for you. But a sex hook up account? Those are very informative. The last surgery was done at Duke when I was a senior there. That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. I do not believe that an addict should be thrown out of church. Once again, you are a bit strong. (This is confusing me ). It may be all they can do to get help. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, & reminding people to give, if they can, to help those in need on TWW, also giving of her own resources. When court go through process you are instructed by your Atty and the judge how to plea to give you time to look at all alternatives. My heart aches for what RC must have had to deal with and for what Vesta and Jrs children still deal with today. You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). A sort of similar tale in our county. Im not entirely sure why its considered relevant by Velour in talking to Barbara about RC Jr., though. You got it dead wrong. A passionate photographer, birder, genealogist, historian and occasional poet, John was 85. However, I have seen two people disfellowshipped at a church, and both of them should have been based on scripture. Praise God, that is truly His heart and should be ours. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. I dont know where the line is. He regained his health, went to AA, extensive counseling and stayed sober. His father died during RC's senior year of High School (around 1956-1958). False guilt attaches to many people in this area because some traditions have prescribed a rule against alcohol when no such law is present in the Bible. I think that is the kindest thing I can do for them as they are the weaker one/s in this regard. 2. Its not about hypocrisy, its about the fact that we all have feet of clay and yet strive to do what is right, stumbling as we keep walking. started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. Not astounding to me. Sovereign Grace Ministries ALBERT SPROUL OBITUARY SPROUL ALBERT J. SPROUL, age 81 of Willowick. Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? I think where we differ is that I did not see Barbaras comment as a blanket endorsement of kicking all addicts/alcoholics out of every church. Velours suggestion is a good one and I hope youll take it to heart. They dont either. They see insult where none was intended, and are quick to react and hurl barbs and insults in retaliation. Velour said: Daisy, Barbara Roberts made a nasty comment to H.U.G. Today that little churchis her home church. The idea that hurting people hurt people is correct but it is not comprehensive. At what point, under what circumstances, under what conditions, is it okay for us to remove the drunkard from the church and it not be Dark Ages practices.. However, I dont believe their marginal successes in any merit the sort of dogmatic enthusiasm you give them. The lady in the story died of alcoholism. To be Faire To Claire, I rather think she was denying, not creating, the correlation. The parents would always come home much later than they had said. Gossip and Condemnation of others is no less sinful than is murder. This is beyond shocking to me. I just dont know any. I already alluded to the fact that there is much more than the public is aware of. I also had lacerations above my eyes and on my arms and legs, along with scalded skin from an exploding radiator. I cannot say Amen too many times to this. Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. your anger is showing, yes Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Am still reading through the comment thread. . I feel for his family and his victims but there wont be any hugs coming from my direction. By the way, you have posted before what area of medicine you worked in. When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. RC seems to be a bit dodgy here. According to his own theology, it does not. I dont know. Menu. Velour wrote: Sproul, Jr.,s daughter) posted a listing of Sprouls offenses and saved me some time: Drunk driving with children. @ Deborah Coan: So you fully agree with what Sproul wrote in that article? Just as people say, Guns do not kill people, people kill people. So also, alcohol is not the problem, but the people who abuse it. 13. He is damaging indeed, and the fruits are showing. Society meanwhile needs to jerk peoples licenses away from them and remove them from their jobs when necessary including withdrawing staff privileges at the hospital or refusing admission to the pulpit much less being a truck driver-all of it. The mental/audio equivalent of Beer Goggles. I believe our church greatly reduced the misery of the woman who died of alcoholism. Its hard here to put everything in words, but I really dont think we are very far apart on this issue. Is is with a licensed professional whos trained and qualified in alcoholism? She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. It wasnt a law back then.. I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! But the church should also do their level-best to get him into treatment since hes a full-blown alcoholic with all of the classic symptoms. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? But if we do this, we usually reply to the comment on-blog telling the commenter that we edited their comment and why we edited it. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. We have gone several rounds. had to drop out of high school athletics in order to help his family . But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. Sproul being terminated from his job for a litany of abuses and disqualifying behaviors. Abuse is a different issue. Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. He is living under the supervision of other strong, caring family members who watch over him and he is slowly regaining his ability to function normally, as well as his dignity. This we can all agree on. But those whove been paying close attention over the years have known that hes got a serious drinking problem. Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? I would be very surprised if he hadnt at least been required to go to a few meetings. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. Under this plea agreement he will face no prison time, provided he successfully completes the requirements of his probation. What if we were discussion a DUI as the culmination of years of heavy drinking on the part of your former pastor? In this mans case, the police authorities, legal professionals, and the public have observed boughs of demonstrated impairment and the use of Improper judgement. I then asked you to stop it, to write your own ideas, and to stop using my name and saying that I am ratifying behavior that I have not. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. Under Sproul's direction, Ligonier Ministries produced the Ligonier Statement on Biblical inerrancy, which would eventually grow into the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, of which Sproul, alongside Norman Geisler, was one of the chief architects. I reacted too strongly to some things you said. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. ADAPTED identifiable applicable scriptural reference application: This is a trustworthy saying ; An overseer, must be above reproach, temperate, self-controlled, respectable and not dependent on wine. Well, his position of Authority comes direct from GAWD, so what do you think? Maybe my white coat still hanging in the back of my closet may still have a blood stain which did not wash out. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. He sounds arrogant and terrible. Our clergy led by example, embracing her and letting her have the full dignity of worship and service. I believe some people are born with a tendency towards addictive behavior and that is why I believe in psychiatric counseling for these tendencies. He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. I am not giving him a pass on his abusive behavior. I said in my post that the topic is banned on your blog (which is a shame, because learning about it has helped me immensely. RC Jr never did start his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. So wrong on both counts. came to pick me up in his car. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. Changed lives. Also, we know both vehicles were traveling at 60 mph upon impact. Of course, if people believe that the real church somehow went dormant with the death of the last apostle and was not revived until the sixteenth century a lot of otherwise good ideas based on experience are just trashed-like the need for privacy regarding some things and how to handle both sinners and privacy within the church. I assume you already know, Christs church isnt a building or a place to park our butts on a pew. Eventually I found assurance in my peace. This website has been following RC SproulJr for years and has documented many problems with his ministry. Mayre Ann (Yardis) Sproul, 50 Clover Drive, Pleasant Hills, passed away Saturday, July 3, 1965. And you disagree that being raised under this theological umbrella could cause problems? No one has said we shouldnt try. And if it is true what you all say about people looking up to preachers, then right up at the top of people who need their jobs taken away is the drunk preacher. I have more than a few alcoholics in my family, some of whom have passed away, possibly a direct or indirect effect of the alcohol. Velour, is there anything in our conversation that has triggered an old experience for you? Your ex-church family sounds like a bunch of cheerless people. No, they dont criticize non-drinkers and they dont make excuses for their drinking. Sigh. Either we publish the comment unedited and then respond on-blog encouraging the commenter to read our explanation of why we think codependent is not a good term for abuse victims. Some of our members moved to other states and started groups. I also prayed for the people who lurk here who struggle with addictions who were reeling from Barbaras words since yesterday. Will continue to pray for you and everyone here who are dealing with pain. 0.175. 4. Wonder what will happen to churches or SBC leaders if they are not willing to sign off on this resolution? Sproul, theologian, pastor, and founder of Ligonier Ministries, died on December 14, 2017, at the age of 78, after being hospitalized due to complications Over the years we formed connections with hospitals, rehabs, special schools. There was no need for pushback, just as there was no need for you to wrongly assume that we are against treatment (which Barbara clarified above). u Vk$XXA,0D0@+H $ Sproul Sr. will experience MUCH MORE suffering than he is right now. The very people he ridiculed recovering alcoholics will probably be the first ones to help him. Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? Both yesterday and today you repeatedly made comments to me, saying that I thought things about R.C. One or two DUIs is usually not enough. The idea of publicly humiliating people who have serious problems that require medical intervention does not sit well with me. I doubt it. I am extremely angry and jealous that I did not make the money he made. I realize that our understanding of addiction today does make it complex, but I am just frustrated with the hypocrisy that makes us look pathetic to non-believers. Sproul Jr.s excommunication. She had lost a son to illness (Lupus) when he was eleven. If anything, youve shown a nasty attitude on this thread to a few others, and now to me. Why not? I am not in that camp as that is an extreme position and there is much more that is known now about helping people with addictions.. Well,this is one way. We don't know the extent to which RC2 family have tried to get help for him, but RC1 is a faithful brother of all of us in Christ. So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? Al-Anon is extremely beneficial and informative, albeit unpleasant. Geeze Louise. I am opposed to hauling out the hurting people argument when and if it is an incorrect application of the idea for several reasons. He has children and a wife. I believe it. The Bible teaches no such thing. You are correct. Unfortunately, it means humbling yourself and opening up your family to public inspection. I am simply trying to understand how sitting in a church service once or twice a week can address the issues of alcoholism, depression, a sore throat, or anything else how can sitting in church heal a person of those things? Q. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. It meant a lot to me. Got a few of my own. Dr. R.C. Im not incorrect. Not born again huh? with R.C. Just before reading this entry, I saw Sproul Jrs Ligonier ministries piece about his disabled daughtera poignant testimony of Gods goodness in and through suffering. Lets discusshymens. I was contacted by a Christian who lurks here and struggles with addiction, who was deeply pained by what was written (including by Barbara Roberts and H.A.) @ okrapod: Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. So I was only saying what the Bible says. The best place for him to go for his probation is an in-patient treatment facility for alcoholism (and whatever else his problems are that his intake uncovers). Much more is known about getting people treatment and about the nature of addictions. Im sorry to hear that, but I still do not share his/her, or your, interpretation of that. Although my situation is different. If he wants church support, hes going to have to change churches, I think. Yes, very insightful. Jesus has been helping us for over 60 years(along with many professionals) but oh the damage and hurt. 1. Barbara simply made some kind of reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you dont agree with. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. Come on People!!!! Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. I was raised with the reality that people know what you are doing and it all comes back on you-at school, at church, in your social circle, on the job and wherever. The surgeon told me no steel plate because if my body had rejected it, I would not have survived a second surgery to remove the plate. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. Sproul Jr.s spiritual abuse of former church members and entire families. We received an email from a former member of RC Sproul Jr's church. agreed: if a person does not want to stop drinking, they cant be forced; but if the person gets into enough trouble (ie. Clearly you didnt read my comment with any understanding of what I was saying. Here is one wonderful article by a Christian woman in recovery, who waged her battle with alcoholism in secret and she explains what she thinks the church can do. and me. Please stop. Velour wrote: (This is different from hiding them for a little while and bringing them back on an apology/book tour. Even Jehovahs Witnesses dont shun entire families for the alleged sins of one family member. A gamer I knew got rammed and killed by a drunk driver around 20 years ago. Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida He who is without sin cast the first stone. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. Come on People!!!! Making the excuses in advance; yes. I will NEVER get over the fact that a drunk driver took away my friends parents in a split second when she was just 13. And they have people in their life who are honest with them and call them on it. Sproultried to get this heard in theDrug Court but was unsuccessful because he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. This was reckless endangerment. Having had much shade thrown our way in the early 80s because our oldest son was into alcohol and drugs, we decided to start a support group called Parents Concerned This was in Silicon Valley. 1. Velour wrote: There is still much distress on this thread, but it does my heart good to see people trying to find common ground. I wonder when I will be kicked out? A further thought, Velour. It is crystal clear. If they will listen to anyone at all it has to be someone whos been there themselves. The book by the lady who is an expert on Verbal Abuse, for instance, has a chapter near the end of her book where she advises women who are VA victims to be very cautious when choosing a MHP because most MHPs are ignorant about VA. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. No one can make him do that. And his family needs it as well for living with a problem drinker. He took me home. If people in his orbit keep hiring attorneys and keepmaking sure he has lots of money, they are enablers and will bear some of the guilt when something tragic happens. To the best of my knowledge she does not have training in the subject of alcoholism. She lost an eye because when her cheek struck the dashboard, the bone came out through her eye socket. I tried so hard to offer some comfort. I have been trying to put many old demons to rest and cancel out some of those old tapes that keep repeating. No need to debate. That has been debunked through the years. 1. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. @ H.A. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. Church attendance wont cure much of anything, but the people of the church should support one another through thick and thin. It is complex. Im just curious, how does a person sitting in a church service every Sunday help to treat someones alcoholism? What does that mean? Of course he needs treatment, but there are far more people harmed by his chronic abuse behavior from his position behind the pulpit as pastor. if this current bout of drinking heavily was a continuance of grieving, he could use: Now I can look back and say, How in the world did we not see how destructive their theology and community was?. It would be nice if you acknowledge that. Ill be praying for you and your circle. The addict builds up a tolerance over time. I got the idea that the commenter thought it was a pity that there hadnt been any earlier DUIs, because the judge would not have let him off so easily if there had been a past record. Unfortunately, in spite of yearsof problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake,it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. H.A. Doesnt calling us to repent mean that you are, by your own reasoning, admitting to your own misperception of Gods holiness? Sure enough, car driving very slowly and deliberately down the wrong side of the street. To seek to return to the Lord means to leave behind all of those temptations that cause one to fall and to no longer go where one is tempted. First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. Hello Velour, I am sorry you were excommunicated on a trumped up charge. Why? They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. Says that even now, when he sees a half-full glass of wine or beer left over at a restaurant, he has to fight down the urge to run over, grab the glass, and chug the remainder.). People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. "Will the SBC Be Able to Continue to Fund Costly Yet Necessary Sex Abuse Reform in a Transparent Fashion?" No, we have theological differences about how people in the church with addictions should be handled kicked out. Whether your last name is Sproul or not I hope youll still feel welcome, although Im sure this is all hard to read. leads to much worse compulsive drinking. For myself, since I do not know the other persons circumstances, I have no plans to undercut what someone says by alleging that they appear to have been hurt in some way. Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. I I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. Clearly. As far as CPS removing his kids goes, they probably wont as long as she remains in the household, unless there is proof of her abetting his drunk driving with kids in the car. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. My wifes oldest son is alcoholic. We are, after all, all Christians here, and are called to bear one another's burdens. 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. . I did read your post, Daisy. 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